Anyone de-tuned a car?

"TheRealBicycleBuck" (therealbicyclebuck) 01/14/2016 at 09:34 • Filed to: None

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A friend of mine bought a 1969 Charger 440 for his first car. He spent a lot of time getting it roadworthy, but it never ran like he expected. He found out later that his dad, in a bid to keep him from killing himself, installed the wrong carburetor gasket. The gasket kept the secondaries from opening all the way, throttling the fuel and air delivery.

Since it won’t be long before my kids are driving, I need to make some decisions about what they will be driving. Of course, they will have their own cars, but I know there will come a time when they have to drive mine for some reason, contrived or real.

There is no way that I will be letting them loose on the world in my WRX without reigning in the ponies. My thought is to go with a COBB tuner and a map that is some derivation of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but since I don’t own a COBB (yet) and have no idea what this will really do to the WRX, I’d like to hear from some of the tuners out there.

Anyone have any experience doing this? Will valet mode be too restrictive to make it reasonable (for them) to drive on the street? How does !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! compare? Any thoughts, Oppo?

bob and john > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:39

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you could theoretically reset the RPM limiter to something really low, like 3500RPM. that way your not going to accidentally run the engine lean or something

Seat Safety Switch > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:45

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Send your kids to a Street Survival school. They’re put on by the SCCA and BMWCCA and basically they autocross the shit-driverness out of your kids until they cry and/or become good at driving.

Hey kids, think parallel parking is hard? Then you’ve never tried to slalom on a skidpad.

http://www.tirerack.com/content/tirera…

jariten1781 > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:45

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Don’t know how it works on the WRX, but the Cobb economy map on the FiST would be perfect. It limits boost to like ~5 lbs (don’t remember the exact number) and it’s dramatically different in power delivery.

Now, I don’t know if you can lock into that map. By default on Fords it puts your loaded map in slot one and then economy/valet/whatever in slots 2-end. They’re switchable via the CC buttons (which is how I found out about the economy map, I somehow triggered a switch to map 2 when turning cruise on...I thought I’d blown off a boost hose). I’m not sure what happens if you directly load the Economy map from the AP.

All that said, having less power has never prevented a kid from doing stupid shit in cars. My old Cavalier could have attested to that if my brother hadn’t killed it by ramming it into the side of a stopped train.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:46

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My dad used to tell us that when we got our first cars he’d yank out half the spark plugs.

Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:46

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This may be a good tool, and it’s also no charge for drivers age 15-19 who have a learner’s permit or driver’s license...

TheRealBicycleBuck > bob and john 01/14/2016 at 09:47

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I really know nothing about these things. Can the rev limiter be set arbitrarily low without touching everything else? Does the tuner have to be attached to keep the tune parameters? Is it possible for me to make changes and then disconnect the tuner while keeping the tune active?

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:47

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your friend’s dad is a dick LOL

Seriously, why buy a kid a 440 and neuter it? Just don’t buy him a big block!

bingham123 > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:47

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definitely try a rev limiter before you detune the car. its easyer and simpler to install and modify.

TheRealBicycleBuck > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 01/14/2016 at 09:48

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I’ve already told them the stereo will be disconnected for the first year.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Seat Safety Switch 01/14/2016 at 09:48

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I planned on some kind of street driving school. Expensive, but worth it.

crowmolly > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:49

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Personally I wouldn’t do that. It would alter the driving behavior too much.

they-will-know-my-velocity > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:50

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I don’t see why it couldn’t be done. Perhaps set it and then pull the access port out so they can’t change it. You could get a tune made that pulls all the advance spark it can and set a rev limiter while still enjoying the Cobb tune for yourself.

I’ve been in Cobb tuned Mustangs (ecoboost) and a WRX. Just, awesome. Any vehicle I purchase that is in their stable of vehicles they support would be tuned through them, no question. Call Cobb in Austin. That’s their main office.

(512) 777-2313 Probably talk to Ian, that’s who I’ve talked to. Asked him all sorts of questions. Great people.

TheRealBicycleBuck > jariten1781 01/14/2016 at 09:52

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Stupidity is better managed with only 100 hp. My first truck had 76 hp and I still managed to get in trouble with it; but my stupidity never exceeded 70 mph, at least in that truck. :)

Party-vi > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:52

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I had an MSD 6AL installed on the Willys and my dad insisted on putting a 4k rpm limiter on it. After some negotiations I got that bumped up to I think 5500 rpm.

TheRealBicycleBuck > they-will-know-my-velocity 01/14/2016 at 09:54

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That’s what I needed - a lead!

I’ll see about giving him a call.

Thanks!

TheRealBicycleBuck > crowmolly 01/14/2016 at 09:54

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I’m not sure what you mean. Please elaborate.

Urambo Tauro > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:54

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This is a really fun question, that I encountered not long ago on a Mustang forum . Whatever you do, you don’t want the driver to think that there is something wrong with the car. If you pull spark wires or something that causes the car to run rough or throw an engine light, they will want to get it fixed. They might even Google the issue or troubleshoot it with their friends.

You want to be sneaky and fool them into assuming that the amount of power is normal. I like the idea of modifying the accelerator to limit its travel. The gasket idea is pretty clever, though.

Nonster > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:54

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Is it really necessary though? I understand your concern, as I have done my fair share of stupid shit back when I was 16-18, but from the few I’ve driven, the WRX is a pretty forgiving car to drive. Seems like a lot of trouble for the few random occasions your kid might drive your car without you.

I vaguely remember seeing some stuff out there for this purpose though. Either a thing that plugs into the OBD2 port and tracks things like engine speed and vehicle speed or actually limits the top speed or revs

crowmolly > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:56

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There are situations where RPM is appropriate and banging off of the rev limiter that’s set low is dangerous.

bob and john > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 09:56

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it would be like driving it normally, but never going over that new ‘limit’

car will handle it fine. if you can re-set that limit.

tuners are just that. tuners. its not something that modifies a signal, it just messes with the programming a little and then you can DC it any time.

APRs tuners load the program into the car, so once its loaded, you can mess with w/e you want through the cars controls and never ahve to use the tuner again. (as an example)

jariten1781 > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:00

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Oh, also you could do what my BIL did to my nephew. Put in a dash cam and periodically review footage with him to, ostensibly, help him improve his driving. heh heh

John > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:01

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I blew my turbo recently and I flashed back to stock to take it to the dealership...thats kind of the same right?

TheRealBicycleBuck > Urambo Tauro 01/14/2016 at 10:01

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Since it will be on my car and only be active when they are using it, I don’t feel the need to hide the truth.

At a family dinner, my mother-in-law announced that her G35 would be going to my son when he got his license. I told her that giving a kid a 250 hp sports car was a bad idea and I wouldn’t let him drive it. When she said I couldn’t stop her, I said that I couldn’t guarantee that the car would remain running when it arrived at our house.... The kids heard the whole conversation.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:03

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I would just get them a high miles used car that is safe and slowish, like a early 2000's subaru forester. Anyway, that’s my plan. I am currently in a 2006 Mazda 3 with a gazilion air bags and ABS and that will go to my daughter, then I will replace it with my very own WRX.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection 01/14/2016 at 10:05

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That’s an interesting program. It may be worth a road trip.

TheRealBicycleBuck > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 01/14/2016 at 10:07

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His dad didn’t buy it. His dad was making the best of a bad situation. After driving it with the modification removed, my friend spoke of his dad’s wisdom.

TheRealBicycleBuck > jariten1781 01/14/2016 at 10:07

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That’s a great idea! Now, why is the footage from Friday night missing?

TheRealBicycleBuck > bingham123 01/14/2016 at 10:10

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Everything I see is a separate box that can be easily tweaked after they drive away from the house. My kids aren’t stupid. If it can be tweaked, they will find a way.

TheRealBicycleBuck > bob and john 01/14/2016 at 10:11

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I got that - I’m wondering what crowmolly means.

TheRealBicycleBuck > crowmolly 01/14/2016 at 10:14

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I’m not sure how restricting the horsepower by setting the RPM limiter low is any more dangerous than just driving a low-horsepower vehicle. A stock Impreza makes 148 hp. What’s so dangerous about de-tuning a WRX to the same (or lower) level?

jariten1781 > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:15

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Exactly. He actually uses the location history that Google keeps to track the kid’s phone and compares it to the GPS track for the dashcam. It’s also a front and rear facing dashcam so he can see the inside of the cabin as well. Don’t know if he crosschecks occasionally with the ODO, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Very Orwelian.

bob and john > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:22

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there comes a certain point where your just hurting the efficiency of the car. lots of knock, lots of build up. or your run it lean (and thats just not fun) detuning the motor isnt really the answer here. your looking for limiting the input

so, before 100% = 100% throttle. you would want to make it 100% throttle = 40% throttle or something like that.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:28

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They’re expensive upfront, but there is a savings on your insurance, and the kid is a better driver. You’ll never offset the cost, but the price of knowledge and knowing you’re not throwing the kid to the wolves would be enough for me. My kids will be going to a course when they are old enough to start driving. Probably a winter course too.

A pogo-stick, obviously. > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:29

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Had a “valet mode” with the APR tune on my VW GLI. Gave it a speed limit of around 50mph and wouldn’t rev over 4,500 rpm if I remember right. Kinda felt like the vehicle was in “limp” mode. Never had a good reason to use it, but I did turn it on once when I let my friend drive just to mess with his head.

crowmolly > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:39

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The car will drive differently. Having a car that tachs short is funky. Funky enough to throw people off, thinking that they have more time before shifts, more power on tap, etc. This is assuming a manual trans, and it’s not to say people spin the piss out of their engines every day. I may have gone weeks without cracking 3000 in some of my cars. But if you need the power and it’s not there that can have bad results.

With some of the engines I built/worked on 3000 RPM chips were put in rev limiters during break in runs, with 2 steps etc and driving the cars was strange.

If you have a car that hits 200hp @ 6000 it drives like any other car on the road. If it hits 200hp @ 3000 and hits a wall that is not “normal” car behavior. For a new driver that can be strange enough to cause an accident IMO.

I dunno, maybe I’m not explaining it right. On paper it seems OK but having been behind the wheel of cars with that setup I just don’t think it’s a good idea.

I’d throw a power pulling tune and a top speed limit on the car before a rev limiter set low. Or look at your power curves and make the rev limit 5k or something.

TheRealBicycleBuck > bob and john 01/14/2016 at 10:43

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That’s an interesting approach. Wouldn’t this be implemented in software, like with a tuner?

I’m not so concerned about the efficiency of the car since I’m not talking about giving it to the kids for a daily driver and it’s really not that efficient to begin with. I’m talking about the situation where one of them asks to borrow it for the evening.

I’m looking for a valet mode that limits performance. “Sure, little Johnny, you can borrow the car. It won’t go from 0-60 in 5.4 seconds and it won’t do more than 65 mph, but you are welcome to borrow it anyway.”

bob and john > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 10:51

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if you have an electronic throttle pedal you can. if its a mechanical linkage, not so much.

TheRealBicycleBuck > crowmolly 01/14/2016 at 10:56

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I suppose if you are accustomed to revving out your car all the time, it might be strange, but if you know that it is limited, then I don’t see where the problem lies.

I’m not sure what you mean by “power pulling tune” but I assume you mean a tune that lowers total power output - which was exactly what I asked about in the first place.

I think Peter’s approach would keep the original tune, but keep the revs below the range where the turbo kicks in. That would keep the kids from racing at lights and it would limit the top speed. This is how it’s usually driven anyway. There shouldn’t be any issues since we aren’t talking about driving it for weeks or months under this limit.

Raymundo > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 11:01

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I am by no means trying to tell you how to be a parent, but what if we thought about this another way? Sure, having a fear that your kids will do something stupid when given the keys to your WRX is a rational fear, but understand that they don’t nessecarily need a lot of power to put themselves in danger. Hell, I romped on my first car on every back road I could find when I first got my license. It only made 134 horsepower so I really needed those tight back roads to induce a rush of adrenaline.

So given that kids are adventurous and stupid, why not focus on education rather than limitation? I’m an instructor with my autocross region’s Tire Rack Street Survival course that we host periodically throughout the year. If you’re unfamiliar with the event, we basically provide classroom and on-course instruction on vehicle control in adverse conditions and with various scenarios. It’s an excellent program that allows new drivers to understand the limits of their vehicle in a safe environment and gain a better understanding on how to control a car given a variety of scenarios.

I feel that someone that understands how a car reacts when pushed beyond it’s limits, knows what those limits are, and knows how to avoid or overcome hazards is a safer driver not only for themselves but for everyone around them on the road. So maybe they need some seat time at autocross or a driving school; maybe even in your WRX. Sure, you could still detune the WRX but after all, we all want what we don’t have. Take something away from someone and they will find an alternate way to achieve their goal. Educate them and they might make smarter decisions.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Nonster 01/14/2016 at 11:04

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All it takes is one moment of stupidity to put a car into a ditch or wrap it around a tree. As has been noted in many places, the WRX is silly fast. there will be big differences from their daily drivers (my daughter wants a Beetle, my son a truck) and my WRX. I think it is worth the effort to detune (untune, downtune, neuter?) the WRX for those rare occasions when they drive it.

All of the tuners I have seen plug into the OBD2 port or connect between the computer and the harness. I’ve seen economy and valet mode maps, but I was hoping that someone around here had experience using a tuner with those maps.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/14/2016 at 11:05

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“I would just get them a high miles used car that is safe and slowish...”

That’s the plan. I also want to cover the occasions when they either ask or need to borrow the WRX for some reason.

crowmolly > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 11:05

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Yes, I mean a tune that lowers power output across the board and does not require remembering anything special about how the car drives. Since it’s software and not physical hands-on tuning it may not be that tall of an order.

Maybe I can put it this way: It’s a change that requires you to give a “primer” to somebody who borrows it. Don’t pull out in front of a truck and stomp on the gas- you’ll get killed , etc.

TheRealBicycleBuck > crowmolly 01/14/2016 at 11:08

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“It’s a change that requires you to give a “primer” to somebody who borrows it. Don’t pull out in front of a truck and stomp on the gas- you’ll get killed , etc.”

We are on the same page. I see that valet and economy tunes are available for the COBB, but I haven’t heard from anyone that has any experience with them and it isn’t clear from the descriptions how much they limit the car.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Raymundo 01/14/2016 at 11:21

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I am well aware of how adventurous and stupid kids can be, after all, I was one of them. I was fortunate that my first truck was so limited (76 hp). As it was, I learned how to get the rear end loose and how it handled when all four wheels no longer touched the ground. Such was the advantage of growing up in the country with access to hilly dirt and gravel roads.

My plan has been to send them to a real driving school where car control is an important part of the curriculum. Knowing how to handle the vehicle when things get out of sorts is fundamental. But education is no guarantee they will make smart decisions.

Kids will be kids and trusting them with a performance car on the public streets is a recipe for disaster.

qbeezy > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 11:38

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Might be better to start off with something really low in power. I.e. civic. My dad slowly raised my exposure to more and more powerful cars as I got older. I eventually graduated to screaming metal death trap from slow as f*** Chevy blazer, but I could handle it at that point. But at some point you’ll have to trust that they will make the right decisions.

qbeezy > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 11:38

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Might be better to start off with something really low in power. I.e. civic. My dad slowly raised my exposure to more and more powerful cars as I got older. I eventually graduated to screaming metal death trap from slow as f*** Chevy blazer, but I could handle it at that point. But at some point you’ll have to trust that they will make the right decisions.

TheRealBicycleBuck > qbeezy 01/14/2016 at 11:45

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“Might be better to start off with something really low in power.”

Yeah, that is the plan. The crux of the discussion is about detuning the WRX for those occasions when the kids do drive it.

TheRealBicycleBuck > A pogo-stick, obviously. 01/14/2016 at 11:47

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“I did turn it on once when I let my friend drive just to mess with his head.”

Funny. How difficult was it to swap tunes? Did you have to leave the tuner connected while he was driving it?

B/Xmrrmvr > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 12:24

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It’s not detuning per se, but Ford’s MyKey system let’s you program your key to restrict the Top Speed of your car for teen drivers.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 12:39

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Another really good one is BSR’s Defensive Driving school at Summit Point, in West Virginia. There’s some slaloming, autoXing, skid pad time, braking, and real world scenario based training. For the “final exam” you drive around the race track at varying speeds and making random controlled or panic stops, while people hiding off to the sides throw things onto the track that you have to avoid, and the instructor occasionally grabs the steering wheel and/or hits the gas/brake.

The training I received has saved my life on numerous occasions.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 12:59

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dont let them drive your car. help them get their own then they will hopefully care about it more

TheRealBicycleBuck > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 01/14/2016 at 13:02

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“dont let them drive your car. help them get their own then they will hopefully care about it more”

I suppose I wasn’t clear enough in my original post. They will have their own cars. I have learned that, despite having their own cars, there will be occasions where they will need to drive mine. I want to be prepared for that eventuality.

A pogo-stick, obviously. > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 13:12

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You actually use the cruise control stalk. Depending if you have a code set, you hold the cruise set button until the CEL starts blinking and then select which program tune you want to use. Mine had only three tunes enabled, stock, valet, & Stage 1. You can have up to 4.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > TheRealBicycleBuck 01/14/2016 at 13:18

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They wreck it they buy it. haha. or course i had a 300whp awd talon when i was 18 so i may be a bit jaded. honestly the only way to do it is with a custom tune done by someone cutting power early and such. And detuning it will more than likely give you worse fuel economy and drivability

TheRealBicycleBuck > A pogo-stick, obviously. 01/14/2016 at 13:21

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Slick. A friend of mine had a similar system on his BMW. Hold down the right button long enough and the gauges would sweep, then settle into specific positions. The number showing on the tach told him which tune was active. It would move as he was pressing some other button (no idea which it was).

How was the tuning process. Were you only able to download specific tunes or was there a way to connect your laptop and tune it yourself?

TheRealBicycleBuck > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 01/15/2016 at 08:27

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I would be surprised if a tune labeled “Economy” which limits throttle input and max RPMs would result in worse fuel economy. Just for fun, I decided to limit myself for the commute home. I kept my foot off the floor and always shifted by 3,000 rpm. The WRX was still faster than most of the traffic.